This is what happens when the TRUTH of God's Word does not MATTER any more.
Lets get back to the Power that can only be found in the Preaching of His Word.
If we can sit back and see things like this take place in our churches and say nothing, then to that person I say to you the TRUTH not only does not MATTER to you but it is also not in you.
To the Pastor's I say take the for sale sign off the pulpit, give the people what they need not what they want, you are called to preach the Word not entertain them.
This is a video of a Saddleback Worship Concert.
There are teenage girls doing dance moves that include Pelvic Thrusts.
Is this really worship to the one true God of the Bible or is this worship to one of those pagan sex gods? You be the judge?http://www.alittleleaven.com/2007/03/shaking_it_for__1.html
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22 comments:
You know, why don't you take a judgemental crap and go away. I mean in the bible there is a time for everything. Ecclesiastes 3. Also these kids in the video are using a talent given to them by God for God's purpose. Just like you are using what ever talents you have for God's purpose. We all have been given a purpose, whether it is a Computer Programmer, teacher, dancer, Is it the purpose that we use the Talents our Master has given us for his purpose, or ours. Read Matthew 25:14-30. We can not say that folks have 1 talent and not the other, Our Master gave talents to serve his purpose not ours. Maybe if more people used talents for this purpose, Philadelphia would be a much better place.
Oh and while I am on this, why do you judge what you don't understand. And oh I have dug through your website, Why don't you become real church, with real people, and not an electronic one. Let me guess, you guys hold service in a PO Box, must get pretty cramped.
I think you hit the nail on the head in your last comment, so I must ask what is it to you that makes up a REAL CHURCH. Also when using scripture make sure you are using it in it's context not your own. The bottom line is that the Lord gives us all we need to know on how to serve Him and worship Him, and what is seen on this video is not Worshiping the Lord in spirit and truth.
Well if we go with the leagl term for a church, lets start with the IRS Please read as follow
Distinct legal existence
Recognized creed and form of worship
Definite and distinct ecclesiastical government
Formal code of doctrine and discipline
Distinct religious history
Membership not associated with any other church or denomination
Organization of ordained ministers
Ordained ministers selected after completing prescribed courses of study
Literature of its own
Established places of worship
Regular congregations
Regular religious services
Sunday schools for the religious instruction of the young
Schools for the preparation of its members.
Hey I don't think you qualify according to the IRS. (I THINK I'll SEND THEM A NOTE for ya) Your a little man who has twisted opinions. Also when you get to heaven I bet you will be pretty shocked when those kids are bouncing and shuckin with Jesus. I tell ya, I would rather have them at Saddleback doing that than a stripper bar. At least God is getting the Glory in the Dance. Those kids worked hard and are using the talent given to them.
And regards to scripture, I understand it just fine. There is a time for everything, And we are to use our talents to serve our Master, not bury them in the ground to not be used.
Enjoy the PO box Service. How many can you fit in the box? You and your LARGE EGO. Oh waite probably just you but you leave because your ego can't fit.
Well I think we all can see this needs only one final comment from me. And that is notice that in your term for church you say formal code of Doctrine and Discipline well that is exactly what is missing from some of our churches, now back to the dance or any type of performance like that in a church, on whome do you think the peoples attention is on God or the Dancer's. Worship is not man centered but God centered, church is not a replacment for a night club nor is it a hang out, it is where God's people come to be taught His Word.
Also I would suggest you get a better view of what the Word tells us about heaven, no one will be shukin with Jesus, just the fact that you would say that shows me of the deep trouble the church is in today. We serve a HOLY HOLY HOLY GOD, Even the angels in heaven must cover thier face in His sight.
Thank you for your comments if you do have a relationship with Christ I pray your heart is opened, If you are not saved I pray our Father in heaven Draw you to His Son and have mercy on your soul.
Preach it Brother Paul!
There is no way than any red blooded male could center his thoughts on God and Jesus Christ while girls are on stage doing pelvic thrusts.
It amazes me that anyone who claims to be a Christian could defend the video.
TRUTH REALLY DOES MATTER!
Isn't it sad when some one can become so upset over the TRUTH yet there be no conviction of the heart.
When another "believer" will insult a pastor who stands for the TRUTH and defend obscene worship to our HOLY GOD really shows how deceived the churches have become.
Maybe this person needs to spend more time in the WORD than reading people's blogs!
Ok. this has gotten intersting. Can you show me in the BIBLE not in your own words, but from the BIBLE that tells me that the form of worship that has been demonstrated here is wrong?
Also where is there a lie in anything I have said? I have spoken the Truth
Read2 Samuel 6:12-16 12 Now King David was told, "The LORD has blessed the household of Obed-Edom and everything he has, because of the ark of God." So David went down and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obed-Edom to the City of David with rejoicing. 13 When those who were carrying the ark of the LORD had taken six steps, he sacrificed a bull and a fattened calf. 14 David, wearing a linen ephod, danced before the LORD with all his might, 15 while he and the entire house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouts and the sound of trumpets.
This a Man in the Bible that Danced with all his might. So you are going to telll me he was sinning. Do you know how he was dancing? I don't think so.
You see here, tell me in the Bible that you attacking others method of reaching the lost is Biblical?
Do you think you telling Christians they are wrong for how they practice is helping, I believe it creates confusion. why not focus on your calling from God, & stop telling everyone else that we as Christians are wrong.
Who you to judge me or us, you don't know us or him. Why do you feel the need to attack us?
Why not enourge all churches to do what ever it takes to reach the lost. If people are being impacted and are changing by use of these methods, then they are not wrong. God wants all man to come to know him, but in order for us to do that we need to put ourselves out there. I found an article about you and you made the comment, that people need to put themselves into another persons world. You don't believe that anymore?
thats what it is all about, and when you go into their world, you reaqch them with what they are interested in, you build relationships you have fun, and yhou reach the Lost.
As a member of this PO BOX church, let me say that sometimes it does get cramped as we worship God together, but honestly, I don't mind because worship is not about me...it's about God. What does it matter if I'm comfortable? What does it matter if I'm entertained? My attention is not and should not be focused on the stage as I'm entertained. If anything occurs to distract me, than God becomes less important, and the distraction becomes important. Whether there are pelvic thrusts (which by the way do look a bit like Pagan rituals to me), or not, really isn't the point. The point is ... does what I'm doing honor God and does it help encourage others to honor God reverently - despite what talents I may or may not have? I certainly would not classify this form of worship as reverent. If it's not, then we quite simply should refrain from doing it. Just because a person can do something doesn't necessary mean that then should do it. That's a very important distinction to make.
Hello Joe,
Well you have just proved what I am sayg your comments (which by the way do look a bit like Pagan rituals to me), the key word here is TO ME. You See ME is not GOD, therefore this is an opinion, not Biblical. Thats the point I am trying to get you & Chuck to admit and you finally did. TO ME is an opinion, therefore not in the Bible. You see what I am saying, you are attacking things that you do not like, which is fine, until you begin to take your opinion and interject it as Biblical Fact & attack it. I understand you do not like Dancing and believe dancing has no place in the church, but thats an opinion, not Fact. If you are going to attack things, I gottat tell you, isnt there better things to attack? I mean if we all united for the single cause of the Great Commission & stop telling people they are leading People to God the wrong way,imagine how many people we would be impacting. Rather than fill the Blogs with whats wrong with Churches, why not unite and reach the lost. We need to ask ourselves, is what these churches are doing reaching the lost? if so, PRAISE GOD, last time I checked God can use it all. So what do you say we all unite, put down our petty differences and carry out the Great Commission and Save a dying world.Who cares if we believe in a Purpose Driven Life, or if we believe in the Champions in You, or whatever, if a Soal comes to know Jesus, Good, let's keep going using whatever method that brings the people to hear the truth then let's do it. What do you say we stop attacking each other, there is a real enemy to attack
To say that God can use any method to lead a person to Christ is well outside of the Bible itself,It is through God's Word that God use's to remove the scales from the eyes of the sinner and lead him to His Son Jesus Christ. Anyone looking at this video and thinks that this is bringing Glory to a Holy God, or that this God's way of bringing souls to His Son, does not know the True God found in Holy Scripture. I see very clearly that what you are saying is that through the preaching of purpose driven methods and music and dance such as what is shown here, can lead a person to god. But it is to the small g god of this world that they go. The god of there own doing, the one they create in there own minds by there own methods. To know the God of scripture He must first know us,and He can only be known through His Holy Word, where His revelation of Himself is made known to us. If men are won by the man made methods shown here, then it is by them that they will be kept. To the point of scripture please take the time to go through our web site it will give you more content then this blog can hold to support this claim. Let's get back to the TRUTH OF SCRIPTURE BECAUSE IT DOES MATTER.If we look at the fact the world has influenced the church to the point that we no longer can see the truth from the lie. It also should be ok with us that two of the movies due out this summer are a mocking of the church and scripture itself, But I would venture to say that those that see nothing wrong with preaching that does not support God's Word, so called worship that belongs in a night club, and interpation of scripture that is down right wrong. So if they see nothing wrong with departing from True Doctrine [that Paul warns us not to do, and also tells of the time to come when we will heap up for ourselves teacher that will tell us what we want to hear]Then when these films come out you would say these are soul winning tools useed by God. Our God is a God of TRUTH He will never be found nor can He be found in the mist of lies. What we are seiing produced by these methods today is a people that draw close to him with there lips only but thier hearts are from Him.
Ok intersting point, but you still have not provided FACTS. where in the Bible does it say what they are doing is SIN & wrong. I don't want opinions, I want FACTS. So far not you, your wife I am guessing with the last initial P), your admin has provided facts, just opinions. you see thats the problem, you are attacking what you don't like. But what I am curious of, is why Saddle Back does not have blogs attacking you? Why do other churches not have attack blogs. you see attacking another person style, is just not right. why do you feel the need to attack other churches, who do not practice your style. I find it interesting that from research I have done on you, you used to practice the same philosophies. Your Ministry in the Inquirer talked about your Methods and they are of the Same beliefs similar to Saddle Back. I find that curious of how you can swing from one side to the other. My question is WHY? You had a Fantastic concept and a Super Market of Ministries. This article comes from Philly Inquirer April 14, 2002 Thats what is so awesome, you used to follow the same concept, this article is about a Man, who would go the distance. But now you just sit and condemn what you used to follow. why is that?
I agree with you, churchoftoday, that we should "unite for a single cause of the Great Commission" although I don't believe that we should use any method possible to do so.
Also, unfortunately, I feel you missed my point. You took my comment entirely out of context. What I said was "Whether there are pelvic thrusts (which by the way do look a bit like Pagan rituals to me), or not, really isn't the point."
I said pelvic thrusts and pagan rituals weren't the point. The point was does what I'm doing honor God and does it help encourage others to honor God reverently. But, you missed all that and focused the words "to me." Clearly, my comments were my own (I never said they were from Scripture)and were parenthetical to the point I was making.
I wasn't quoting Scripture or attacking anything in my comments. If you felt attacked, then clearly there is some level of conviction going on inside you that what I said was true. I would urge you to listen to those convictions. It could be the Holy Spirit.
Communication is a two way street that requires listening and speaking. If we can't even do that correctly(especially when the words are in black-and-white), how will we ever reach an agreement on anything?
It makes me wonder that if you misinterpret my written points (which aren't all that important) by focusing on the wrong thing, how much more so will you do that with Scripture (which is the most important written communication ever provided)?
What we say does matter, whether it is on a blog site or in a church bulletin. So, we might as well speak THE TRUTH. I pray that I can continue to do that in love, but with an uncompromising integrity as well.
The best source of Truth that I know is God's Holy Word. Let's focus our attention there. After all, that's where God is truly revealed.
First of all I want to thank our Lord Almighty for opening up my eyes to the Truth of His Word in both preaching and in Worship. I openly tell everyone that I once was going after the fact that bigger must be better and be of God.However I was convinced through scripture along with seeing with my own eyes people who were being won by feelings and not by the power of His Word being Preached. I also saw the fact of winning a person by something outside of the Gospel means that you must also keep them by something new each week outside of the Gospel. It must also be adressed to you that scripture has been shown to you but now it is up to the Spirt to reveal that to you. In my closing comment to What it is I do along with the team here at TRUTH MATTERS is to bring the Truth of God's Word to the world, I welcome Anyone from any church to discuss anything that I have brought out, and to note that I have not brought anything to the public eye that they have not done so before me. What I want to see happen is a public debate in front of God's people so that so many issues that are crippling the church may be talked about.
We thank you for your comments and look forward to talking to you in the future.
Ok Chuck, Your telling me an open debate about what? You think the rest of the world really cares about what you think, and don't think. I mean if you are debating other churches, I gotta tell ya that sounds kinda dumb, because if you spent less time worrying about other churches methods, and more time trying to save a dying world, would that be spending your time in a much better way. I mean, I gotta ask, when the world watches churches argue about doctorine or concepts of delivery methods, do you really think that inspires them to want to get to know God. Arent we the example of Christ. People don't see God, they see God through the footprints in our lives. So why attack other churches.. You see, I just don't buy your eyes are opened to the Truth, so your telling me everything you did in the Old methods, did not work and failed and was wrong. So I guess the LA Dream center is Wrong too, WOW thats pretty strange because I see lives being changed and impacted and people going out and using thier talents to impact the lost and change lives. I have also attended Saddle Back, Joel Olsteen, and I have seen thousands of not just conversions, but true followers of God being grown and they are carrying out the message. Have you been to these churches?
Why the need to debate, do people get saved when Christians debate philosophy? I would say not, so again I ask the question, Where in The BIBLE are these methods wrong. Have you been to Heaven? I would say not, you have no idea how Worship is conducted & what does GOD consider HOLY. Can you answer that? I think not. I don't buy your answer of "I am Converted" You see I think something happened to you and now you are jumping onto the next bandwagon. You see None of You, Wife, Admin, have given me True Scripture that tells me these things are wrong that Saddleback uses and the rest of the churches use, is wrong. Can you give me Scripture and not PCC opinions? IF you can't just admit it, admit that all these things in this blog are of opinions and beliefs of a man, and not of GOD. Give me Biblical Versus, Book, Chapter Verse, thats the evidence I want, I know none of you can do it, because there I none, (I know I looked)But if I am wrong, give them to me. Which Staff member is next to write in the Blog, I think we are missing a few. Brian, Benji. Come on lets make this a true debate. Here I am The Church of Today open for your debate, but so far, all you have is opinions, no TRUE FACTS. I am waiting for FACTS!
Let me start off by saying that you are a very shallow person in both your understanding and aplication of scripture, I do not take to heart anything that comes from your mouth as it is very evedent from your comments that you do not take to heart the truth of God's Word. But I will recommend to you the book by D.A Carson "Tell The Truth" I will also give you this discource on preaching and worship,followed by an artical by Brian Bivens.I must also say that I can see by the unsetteled tone in your posts that you have no foundation in which you are standing on.I pray that for your sake God removes the blinders from your eyes.
But I will say to all of the churches that are faithfully standing for the truth everyday, stand strong and run everyday the race unto Christ, There are many pastor's and churches that I speak too and meet each year that are holding firm to the God's Word. But we still must stand firm against those that do not hold to the truth, Doctrine divides for a reason and the TRUTH WILL ALWAYS MATTER.
When I read about prosperity-preaching churches, my response is: “If I were not on the inside of Christianity, I wouldn’t want in.” In other words, if this is the message of Jesus, no thank you.
Luring people to Christ to get rich is both deceitful and deadly. It’s deceitful because when Jesus himself called us, he said things like: “Any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple” (Luke 14:33). And it’s deadly because the desire to be rich plunges “people into ruin and destruction” (1 Timothy 6:9). So here is my plea to preachers of the gospel.
1. Don’t develop a philosophy of ministry that makes it harder for people to get into heaven.
Jesus said, “How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!” His disciples were astonished, as many in the “prosperity” movement should be. So Jesus went on to raise their astonishment even higher by saying, “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” They respond in disbelief: “Then who can be saved?” Jesus says, “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God” (Mark 10:23-27).
My question for prosperity preachers is: Why would you want to develop a ministry focus that makes it harder for people to enter heaven?
2. Do not develop a philosophy of ministry that kindles suicidal desires in people.
Paul said, “There is great gain in godliness with contentment, for we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out of the world. But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content.” But then he warned against the desire to be rich. And by implication, he warned against preachers who stir up the desire to be rich instead of helping people get rid of it. He warned, “Those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs” (1 Timothy 6:6-10).
So my question for prosperity preachers is: Why would you want to develop a ministry that encourages people to pierce themselves with many pangs and plunge themselves into ruin and destruction?
3. Do not develop a philosophy of ministry that encourages vulnerability to moth and rust.
Jesus warns against the effort to lay up treasures on earth. That is, he tells us to be givers, not keepers. “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal” (Matthew 6:19).
Yes, we all keep something. But given the built-in tendency toward greed in all of us, why would we take the focus off Jesus and turn it upside down?
4. Don’t develop a philosophy of ministry that makes hard work a means of amassing wealth.
Paul said we should not steal. The alternative was hard work with our own hands. But the main purpose was not merely to hoard or even to have. The purpose was “to have to give.” “Let him labor, working with his hands, that he may have to give to him who is in need” (Ephesians 4:28). This is not a justification for being rich in order to give more. It is a call to make more and keep less so you can give more. There is no reason why a person who makes $200,000 should live any differently from the way a person who makes $80,000 lives. Find a wartime lifestyle; cap your expenditures; then give the rest away.
Why would you want to encourage people to think that they should possess wealth in order to be a lavish giver? Why not encourage them to keep their lives more simple and be an even more lavish giver? Would that not add to their generosity a strong testimony that Christ, and not possessions, is their treasure?
5. Don’t develop a philosophy of ministry that promotes less faith in the promises of God to be for us what money can’t be.
The reason the writer to the Hebrews tells us to be content with what we have is that the opposite implies less faith in the promises of God. He says, “Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, ‘I will never leave you nor forsake you.’ So we can confidently say, ‘The Lord is my helper; I will not fear; what can man do to me?’” (Hebrews 13:5-6).
If the Bible tells us that being content with what we have honors the promise of God never to forsake us, why would we want to teach people to want to be rich?
6. Don’t develop a philosophy of ministry that contributes to your people being choked to death.
Jesus warns that the word of God, which is meant to give us life, can be choked off from any effectiveness by riches. He says it is like a seed that grows up among thorns that choke it to death: “They are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the . . . riches . . . of life, and their fruit does not mature” (Luke 8:14).
Why would we want to encourage people to pursue the very thing that Jesus warns will choke us to death?
7. Don’t develop a philosophy of ministry that takes the seasoning out of the salt and puts the light under a basket.
What is it about Christians that makes them the salt of the earth and the light of the world? It is not wealth. The desire for wealth and the pursuit of wealth tastes and looks just like the world. It does not offer the world anything different from what it already believes in. The great tragedy of prosperity-preaching is that a person does not have to be spiritually awakened in order to embrace it; one needs only to be greedy. Getting rich in the name of Jesus is not the salt of the earth or the light of the world. In this, the world simply sees a reflection of itself. And if it works, they will buy it.
The context of Jesus’ saying shows us what the salt and light are. They are the joyful willingness to suffering for Christ. Here is what Jesus said, “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. You are the salt of the earth. . . . You are the light of the world” (Matthew 5:11-14).
What will make the world taste (the salt) and see (the light) of Christ in us is not that we love wealth the same way they do. Rather, it will be the willingness and the ability of Christians to love others through suffering, all the while rejoicing because their reward is in heaven with Jesus. This is inexplicable on human terms. This is supernatural. But to attract people with promises of prosperity is simply natural. It is not the message of Jesus. It is not what he died to achieve.
The following artical was written by Brian Bivens Music Minister PCC.
1 John 2:15 Do not love the world, nor the things in the world. If any one loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
James 4:4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
Very often, churches in this day and age have difficulty lining up their practices, their teaching, and their worship with these verses. Certainly, these verses present a devastating blow to our natural desire for acceptance, comfort and a conflict free life. Too often we see churches look past verses like these, in an attempt to reach out to the lost. The movement is called the "Seeker Sensitive Movement", and while on the surface, the idea sounds great; this is a group trying to reach the lost, however when closely examined, what is being done, whether it is deliberate or not, is an undermining of scriptural authority. We are clearly warned of the importance of how we treat the scriptures. (cf. Matt 5:19)
In our short time together, we are going to look at a few passages that clearly teach the doctrine of separation, or the scriptural teaching, that a believer is clearly called for in both the Old and New Testaments to separate themselves from both sinfulness and worldliness.
First, lets look at our passages listed above:
1 John 2:15 Do not love the world, nor the things in the world. If any one loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
This passage, in context with the book of 1 John, is a call to believers to come out from the bondage of worldliness and sin, and in reviewing the book of 1 John, you can see the intent of the book as summarized in 5:13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life." The fact is, that all throughout this wonderful book, John lays out black and white for us the difference between light and darkness, sin and righteousness, believer and unbeliever, and in this passage, as difficult as it can be for us from time to time, God Himself is telling us that we cannot have such a hold on this world, that we lose our focus on Him. If anything on earth is getting between you and God, then whatever, or who ever it is, needs to go.
Now, to apply this scripture to worship, and what is taking place in many churches. Church, above all things is to be about God. It is a group of believers, who come together with the intent to worship God; singing His praises, listening obediently to the Word, and fellowshipping with our brothers and sisters in Christ. When we look at the church described in scripture, that is exactly what is taking place. However, many churches today are trying to mass evangelize the lost, and in the process, they aren't feeding the sheep the Word of God that they need to grow. The truth is, that in a church service, the Word of God is to be preached uncompromised, the people of God are to worship Him unhindered, and the unbeliever who comes into the true church of Jesus Christ will be won not by dimmed lights, skits, handouts or emotional altar calls, but instead by the power of the Holy Spirit, working through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Evangelism is not the sole duty of the Pastor on Sunday, no, evangelism is the duty of the well fed believer, taking the Word back from church, and their own private studies to the rest of world around them.
I am in no way against, or trying to take away from bringing the lost into church, and witnessing the grace of God at work in their lives. I am in no way saying that people aren't saved frequently in church services. I am against however, the church service that is catered to the unbeliever, because it is not biblical. The church must let go of our desire to be well liked by the world, accepted and at peace with everyone around us. We must return to the principals of scripture that teach us, that following Christ means carrying a cross.
The next scripture takes this a step further, James shows us that our allegiance cannot lie both with God, and the world around us, but instead, when we hold the world and it's standards at an exalted place in our lives, we are literally making ourselves enemies of the most high God:
James 4:4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
I have been in church services, where secular music was played to a questionable dance routine. Where Christian lyrics were overlaid on top of a secular (and very anti-God) heavy metal song, and where the Word of God, the precious Word of God, which is to be our very bread of life, was merely an afterthought to the guitar solos and flashing lights. The problem therein lies in our confidence in God's Word. Is the Gospel all that truly needs to be presented for salvation, or do we have to win the world over by incorporating their practices? Is the Gospel no longer sufficient to win the lost? Do we need to spice it up a bit to make it more palatable to the average onlooker?
The answer to these questions should be obvious, an emphatic "No". Nowhere in scripture do we see anyone being saved apart from the truth of the Gospel, and the grace of God. Nothing we can add to the Gospel can make it more valuable, more reliable or more desirable, because the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing (cf. 1 Corinthians 1:18). When we go out of our way to make the world comfortable in church, we end up stripping God of His glory, because we are placing our concerns and the concerns of others, above His. God doesn't share His glory with anyone, and our church services should do one thing, glorify God.
The last scripture I would like to look at will speak for itself:
2 Corinthians 6:14-18 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God and they shall be My people. Therefore, come out from their midst and be separate," says the Lord. "and do not touch what is unclean; and I will welcome you. And I will be a Father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to Me," says the Lord Almighty"
This scripture makes it very clear as well, that our purpose is not to conform to the world or anything of the world. If we would purify ourselves, and turn our worship of God into a holy and pure offering, not to meet our felt needs, but to exalt God through our savior Jesus Christ, maybe then the world would take notice, not because we are becoming more and more like them, but because we become more and more like Christ, who the world still can't help but take notice of.
All human inventions which are set up to corrupt the simple purity of the Word of God, and to undo the worship which he demands and approves, are true sacrileges, in which the Christian man cannot participate without blaspheming God, and trampling his honour underfoot. [John Calvin]
Isn't it amazing that with all the content on this blog site that one would wish to dispute, church of today is so adamantly trying to defend what these girls (and that church allows) call worship to a Holy God?
I think this speaks volumes.
Who are you anyway church of today?
What is your real name and what church do you attend? If you are standing on Truth you need not hide!
Ok Who am I, thats a good question. My Name is William Cunningham, I live in Philadelphia, PA and I attend Tenth Presp. Are You shocked???? You see my dear, I have a very good understanding of scripture, I also have studied at Liberty & recieved my degree from there. I got my Masters at Asbury Theological seminary. One thing I learned, is I need not anything other than the Bible to translate the Bible. I don't use anythig other than the Bible itself. This way it does not get translated incorrectly. You see, I too have a very good understanding of the Bible, but what I wanted to show is how far you guys would go to smear another church. you put alot of energy in producing scripture which never answered my challenge. Show me where Saddleback is wrong in their form of worship. You have said this form of Worship is wrong, but have not produced one single scripture to back it up. You did not know whats in the heart of those in the audience nor whats in the Heart of those girls on the stage. What they did took alot of hard work, and were exerting energy in their form of Worship. I dont care if you sing, dance, do gymnastics, or dangle from the Balcony of the church, if what you are doing in your heart is what counts. You see Everything has a form of Worship. My Wife and I dance, and I teach how to use your Talents to Worship God. Yes thats dancing, singing, using Money, using Racing cars. you see it's not about the crowd, its about the one person remianing humble and offering Worship to our Heavenly Father. Thats what I teach, the offering of Worship to God, we should Honor GOD in all that we do. If you preach do it so it honors GOD with 100% truth, if you Dance, do it with 100% excellence and keep your heart focused on God and worshiping him, forget the crowd. If you are a Stock Broker do it in such a way that it brings honor to GOD, if you are a mechanic, Pull those wrenches so that it is done with excellence and it is not done for greed, but to use it for the Lord. If you dance on Broadway, do it with honor not for yourself, but to bring honor to God through your heart and allow him to control. If you are a Police Officer, do your servant Job as a servant to GOD. IF you are a Tax collector, do it so that it brings honor to God. IF you are a Rock Star, do it so that God get's the credit for putting you there, and give him the Glory.
ROMAN 11:33-36
33-36 Have you ever come on anything quite like this extravagant generosity of God, this deep, deep wisdom? It's way over our heads. We'll never figure it out.
Is there anyone around who can explain God?
Anyone smart enough to tell him what to do?
Anyone who has done him such a huge favor
that God has to ask his advice?
Everything comes from him;
Everything happens through him;
Everything ends up in him.
Always glory! Always praise!
Yes. Yes. Yes
If you publish this comment I will be shocked. See you on July 1st.
Iam shocked that the type of Worship service that is conducted at Tenth church fits your thought of worship, but if that is were you attend Iam glad you are sitting under the Truth. However I must say that getting back to the video I do not even see that as Worship nor do i see how the Bible supports that type of behavor even if it is done in name of God.Have you ever thought at Tenth why the people in charge of the music sit were they do? It is all to take the focus off of man and put all of the focus on God Himself.
I have some verses for you to back up what I am saying & there is no "I" in any of it.
John 4: 23-24 "It's who you are and the way you live that count before God. Your worship must engage your spirit in the pursuit of truth. That's the kind of people the Father is out looking for: those who are simply and honestly themselves before him in their worship. God is sheer being itself—Spirit. Those who worship him must do it out of their very being, their spirits, their true selves, in adoration."
God wants you to be you, just the way he created you. Not trying to fit a mold others tell you you have to be, be who God created you, and worship the way God created you. and then we go back to
ROMAN 11:33-36
33-36 Have you ever come on anything quite like this extravagant generosity of God, this deep, deep wisdom? It's way over our heads. We'll never figure it out.
Is there anyone around who can explain God?
Anyone smart enough to tell him what to do?
Anyone who has done him such a huge favor
that God has to ask his advice?
Everything comes from him;
Everything happens through him;
Everything ends up in him.
Always glory! Always praise!
Yes. Yes. Yes
You see, God does not need your help telling people how they must worship. He has already done it, Worship God with all honesty and let your heart do the talking, It's between the person & God. Not chuck, Person, God, but just GOD
Church of today, you seem to using different translation of the Word that are not very literal such as the message, amplified etc. let me show you John 4:23-24 using NASB and also Romans 11:33-36
John 4:23-24 But an hour is coming and now is,when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth;for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers God is spirit and thos who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and Truth.
So you can see very clearly from this text that our Father in heaven seeks those who will worship Him in spirit and in Truth, and the only way we can worship Him in Spirit and in Truth is to have the blinders taken from our eyes by God the Father. I see no foundation on your part to still hold to the claim that the dancing seen in this video is bringing Glory to a Holy God and worshiping Him in spirit and in TRUTH.
Romans 11:33-36
Oh,the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God how unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways for who has known the mind of the Lord or who became His counselor? or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to Him again? for who from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. to Him be the Glory forever Amen.
What we have here is the Infinite God to His finite creature. What we also see here is that God is beyound our reach in such a way that we cant not put Him in box. and what we also see very clearly is that all things that make up His nature flow through Him, so point in case worship that is not of spirit and of TRUTH is not of Him nor can it be a part of His make up. If that is not the case then any pagen worship done in the deepest jungle as long as they mean well must be of the Father. And thgat of cource is nonsence.
So once again I say you have no argument to give a foundation to what is seen in this video.
And if you strongly belive that this is bringing Glory to God, then as your call letters state, I can rest my case that the CHURCHES OF TODAY who are choicing to follow the way of the world, will heap up teachers for themselves to satisfiy there own desires, the Words of Paul fall hard on this generation.
I say we need to do away with the CHURCH OF TODAY that man has made in his own imadge and go back to true Church that was known in the heart of God almighty before the foundtion of time itself
The CHURCH OF TODAY sees nothing wrong with this video However if Paul or any of the diciples would have walked in on this they would have been driven out with a rod.
The CHURCH OF TODAY claimes that he knows God would aprove of this and all of the water down seeker friendly story telling comming from some of the pulpits today, and it is not because God has revealed this in His Word
But Because the CHURCH OF TODAY desires this in his own heart. And we all know that the desires of the heart of man is wicked all of the time.
William Cunningham? Shocked No, but sadly disappointed. If a TRUE believer of Jesus Christ with the biblical education you claim to have, can sit under such BIBLICALLY SOUND teaching as that of Tenth Presbyterian church and yet defend the worship of Saddleback, than all I can say is that I am deeply grieved that satan has deceived so many!
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