In the same week of seeing with my own eyes - one of the most distressing "come on, get baptized, everybody's doing it" type church videos, I also happened to read a blog post bathed in baptism-boasting and conversion counting. It comes from a familiar source, and once again, he's indignant that anyone would question the importance of 'numbers'. In this post however, we'll hear from a recovering 'numbers' pastor, and find out from him where his obsession lead him.
Before we do, be sure to watch the BBQ and Baptism party video that I saw this week. A more tame methodology for twisting people's arms until they agree to be baptized is Rick Warren's 40 Ways To Increase Baptisms. But don't forget to scuba equip your pastor, to help get more kids to dive in. With all of these churches putting the hard-sell on, to manipulate more baptisms, it must seem shocking to them that there are actually some churches that still want to see evidence of a credible profession of faith before allowing anyone to be baptized. Suffice it to say, those of us who still think that way are not all that impressed with the numbers of people being nudged into the water these days. Likewise, I'm not all that impressed with Perry Noble's latest post simply entitled "1171", named after the number of baptisms he's had:
do the numbers really matter? I actually refuse to engage in that argument anymore...it's stupid and meaningless and the ONLY churches that say numbers don't matter are the ones with no numbers. ...we've baptized 1171 people!...GOD HELP the church that just wants to be small and comfortable and, in so doing, neglects sharing the Gospel with those who are bound for hell!!!
We've been through this with Perry before, yet he never seems to get it, or perhaps he's just unwilling to accurately represent the position of those who oppose his view. But just to recap: Nobody is saying number counting is bad; we are however disputing the way some churches rely on 'numbers' as their primary indicator of success. The Mormons, TBN, Catholics, and Muslims, all have 'numbers'; need I say more? We also dispute the microwave claims of so many like Perry who often post on their blogs "300 got saved tonight"; it's a useless counting of unhatched chickens. We also dispute Perry's continual insistence that - to not have 'numbers' equates to: "your church likes being small" or "your church doesn't evangelize". And by the way, it's also wrong to suggest that the only ones with these concerns are the small churches that don't have 'numbers' (I happen to know that's not true).
As I said, there's nothing wrong with counting, but another pastor, Samuel Rima warns of the obsession with numbers that he fell into, and pastors like Perry Noble are in danger of as well. Pastor Rima writes:
The Confessions of a 'Numbers' Pastor:
When I began in pastoral ministry, I was much more concerned, in fact almost exclusively concerned, with with quantity as opposed to quality. When I began my ministry journey, it was not at all about the quality of the journey, but rather about reaching the destination as quickly and impressively as possible.
Every week saw me consumed with numbers: giving amounts, attendance figures, response numbers visitor counts, and many other empirical standards of measure that gave irrefutable testimony to whether or not we had been successful for that week of ministry.Let the numbers be down - even for one week - and I would be tumbling into a depressed state, scared to death that the end of my ministry was just around the corner and that any future advancement in ministry was in grave jeopardy. Frankly it was a miserable and destructive way to do ministry and live life. During those years of obsessive and compulsive success seeking, I experienced periods of extreme stress and the almost constant fear that we would lose some of our hard-won gains. ...Fortunately, over the course of time, and as a result of a near emotional breakdown, God began the slow process of changing my warped perspective of success - particularly success as it relates to ministry. ... For me, success in ministry has become much more qualitative than it is quantitative. I no longer obsessively measure my accomplishments in terms of numbers and statistics as I did in my early years of ministry, seeing them as a direct reflection on my personal ability or worth as a person. For me success in ministry and life has begun to take on a more spiritual and intangible meaning.The reality is that it is entirely possible to manufacture phenomenal church growth and produce dramatic tangible indicators of success, while at the same time accomplishing nothing of any genuine eternal value. In fact the realization of tangible signs of success in ministry can actually be the source of profound spiritual sickness and dysfunction, both in church and in the life of an individual leader.
Pastor Rima spoke-out about his former numbers-obsession in a book he later authored called Rethinking the Successful Church. We can only pray that Perry Noble and other 'numbers' pastors will one day come to the same understanding. Yes, you can say that "numbers are people and that's why we care", but it's also true for many of these pastors that 'numbers' are an unhealthy obsession with synthetic church growth via unbiblical evangelism methods.
Before we do, be sure to watch the BBQ and Baptism party video that I saw this week. A more tame methodology for twisting people's arms until they agree to be baptized is Rick Warren's 40 Ways To Increase Baptisms. But don't forget to scuba equip your pastor, to help get more kids to dive in. With all of these churches putting the hard-sell on, to manipulate more baptisms, it must seem shocking to them that there are actually some churches that still want to see evidence of a credible profession of faith before allowing anyone to be baptized. Suffice it to say, those of us who still think that way are not all that impressed with the numbers of people being nudged into the water these days. Likewise, I'm not all that impressed with Perry Noble's latest post simply entitled "1171", named after the number of baptisms he's had:
do the numbers really matter? I actually refuse to engage in that argument anymore...it's stupid and meaningless and the ONLY churches that say numbers don't matter are the ones with no numbers. ...we've baptized 1171 people!...GOD HELP the church that just wants to be small and comfortable and, in so doing, neglects sharing the Gospel with those who are bound for hell!!!
We've been through this with Perry before, yet he never seems to get it, or perhaps he's just unwilling to accurately represent the position of those who oppose his view. But just to recap: Nobody is saying number counting is bad; we are however disputing the way some churches rely on 'numbers' as their primary indicator of success. The Mormons, TBN, Catholics, and Muslims, all have 'numbers'; need I say more? We also dispute the microwave claims of so many like Perry who often post on their blogs "300 got saved tonight"; it's a useless counting of unhatched chickens. We also dispute Perry's continual insistence that - to not have 'numbers' equates to: "your church likes being small" or "your church doesn't evangelize". And by the way, it's also wrong to suggest that the only ones with these concerns are the small churches that don't have 'numbers' (I happen to know that's not true).
As I said, there's nothing wrong with counting, but another pastor, Samuel Rima warns of the obsession with numbers that he fell into, and pastors like Perry Noble are in danger of as well. Pastor Rima writes:
The Confessions of a 'Numbers' Pastor:
When I began in pastoral ministry, I was much more concerned, in fact almost exclusively concerned, with with quantity as opposed to quality. When I began my ministry journey, it was not at all about the quality of the journey, but rather about reaching the destination as quickly and impressively as possible.
Every week saw me consumed with numbers: giving amounts, attendance figures, response numbers visitor counts, and many other empirical standards of measure that gave irrefutable testimony to whether or not we had been successful for that week of ministry.Let the numbers be down - even for one week - and I would be tumbling into a depressed state, scared to death that the end of my ministry was just around the corner and that any future advancement in ministry was in grave jeopardy. Frankly it was a miserable and destructive way to do ministry and live life. During those years of obsessive and compulsive success seeking, I experienced periods of extreme stress and the almost constant fear that we would lose some of our hard-won gains. ...Fortunately, over the course of time, and as a result of a near emotional breakdown, God began the slow process of changing my warped perspective of success - particularly success as it relates to ministry. ... For me, success in ministry has become much more qualitative than it is quantitative. I no longer obsessively measure my accomplishments in terms of numbers and statistics as I did in my early years of ministry, seeing them as a direct reflection on my personal ability or worth as a person. For me success in ministry and life has begun to take on a more spiritual and intangible meaning.The reality is that it is entirely possible to manufacture phenomenal church growth and produce dramatic tangible indicators of success, while at the same time accomplishing nothing of any genuine eternal value. In fact the realization of tangible signs of success in ministry can actually be the source of profound spiritual sickness and dysfunction, both in church and in the life of an individual leader.
Pastor Rima spoke-out about his former numbers-obsession in a book he later authored called Rethinking the Successful Church. We can only pray that Perry Noble and other 'numbers' pastors will one day come to the same understanding. Yes, you can say that "numbers are people and that's why we care", but it's also true for many of these pastors that 'numbers' are an unhealthy obsession with synthetic church growth via unbiblical evangelism methods.
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